| User | Post |
|
11:24 am August 10, 2008
| Glen
| | |
| New Member | posts 0 | |
|
|
In Bradley County, Tennessee, the local sheriff has offered local congregations a training opportunity so there can be armed people in more churches. Of course, there are many opinions related to this matter that evolve more from political views, religious sentiment, and moral opinion.
Some in the church would never consider attending in a place where there are armed people in the congregation. Others carry firearms, train regularly for proficiency and are prepared to use them if someone threatens their congregation with deadly force. I am sure there are a whole lot of people somewhere in the middle. They like the idea of added protection while in church, but have a hard time wondering if Jesus or his disciples might pack heat at a gathering.
My opinion is a gun may be the only way to stop a person who is using a deadly weapon to kill innocent people. However, many incidents have been solved by people standing up and attacking the gunman and holding him down until the police arrive. Even if a weapon had been present, the initial people who are targeted are usually killed prior to a defensive reaction on the part of an armed or unarmed person.
I guess my biggest issue is the training aspect of carrying a weapon. It is one thing for Deacon Bill to own a handgun for 35 years vs. knowing how to effectively use the handgun in a combat environment. It is strange to consider the church becoming a combat environment, but then again it is weird to believe a combat environment can exist in an Amish community, local schools, large universities, and the post office too.
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, author of On Combat and On Killing, two awesome scholarly works on the how human being react to violence, is convinced we are living in the most violent times in human history, and the only reason the homicide rate isn't higher is because life saving technology has improved over the past thirty years. I am with him.
Given the fact that our Christian brothers and sisters are being beaten, shot, and attacked on a regular basis in predominantly Islamic and Communist countries, we should not be surprised that Christians are being assaulted in their places of worship here in America.
Like a Pandora's box, I believe the concept of church violence has been cracked open, and there will be more attacks upon churches. Much like Columbine, once a horrific, violent act has occurred in a place where a violent attack was once taboo, it seems like evil people are given permission to act upon their perverse view of the world.
Is it surprising the world is becoming more violent? Jesus told us it would happen. What should our response be? Should we defend ourselves or should we allow ourselves to be martyred for the cause of Christ?
See article from Tennessee Paper
Tell us what you think…leave a comment below.
Read original blog post
|
|
|
8:21 am August 12, 2008
|
| | Ohio | |
| Guest
| posts | |
|
|
Wow. That certainly is an interesting thought and definitely very nice of that sheriff. My only problem with the whole things is, I don't believe guns need to be carried in churches. You made mention of it, and I'll repeat it, I don't believe people would want to come back to church if they found out their safety team is carrying. Most people just see guns as ugly and scary and they don't want any part of it whatsoever. Plus there's the training and certifying aspect of everything that most people don't understand. As Jack once pointed out, there are specific certifications and licenses that MUST be obtained before you are permitted to carry in a security type setting. A CCW simply does not cover it (at least not in Ohio.) So, in conclusion, I'd have to say church security teams should be well trained in self defense and triangulation methods, weapon disarms, no contact issue defusion, and all of that, but I truly believe they do not need to have firearms training to carry firearms in the church.
|
|
|
9:35 pm August 13, 2008
| Jack Justice
| | Dayton Ohio | |
| New Member | posts 0 | |
|
|
Jake
This is a very big can of worms. Much of it depends on the laws of your state. Also, many teams have off duty or retired police officers that can legally and confidently fill the role of a weapons bearer.
In a very high profile church that takes very controversial issues, deadly weapons may be prudent. However, with this responsibility comes a much higher standard of training. Glen and I had lunch today and were discussing this very issue.
To insure the safety of bystanders, the armed church security officer that responds to an active shooter needs to be trained in a fashion similar to a police first responder or a tactical officer. This means more than just getting a CCW. It means:
- Have the proper mindset
- Having a calm, mature peronality
- Knowing how to keep their weapon properly concealed
- Having mastered basic marksmanship
- Having mastered disarming techniques
- Having mastered hand to hand fighting skills.
Just imagine a new CCW holder with a 5 shot snub nosed revolver engaging an active shooter in church where there are 500 to 1000 members in the service. Very scary
I am putting together a new article that will review the training needed to handle these types of incidents. We should release it in the next 2 weeks.
Being trained in active shooter response tactic
|
|
|
11:48 pm August 13, 2008
|
| | Ohio | |
| Guest
| posts | |
|
|
karatejake said:
So, in conclusion, I'd have to say church security teams should be well trained in self defense and triangulation methods, weapon disarms, no contact issue defusion, and all of that, but I truly believe they do not need to have firearms training to carry firearms in the church.
What I meant to say was I don't believe they should carry firearms. I reread it and wanted to make sure everyone understood that I didn't mean that they don't need training to carry. I simply meant they shouldn't carry. Jack, you definitely made a valid point with the high profile churches and large churches and controversial churches. Gotcha.
|
|
|
3:07 pm August 14, 2008
| rainmaker
| | Middletown, OH | |
| New Member | posts 0 | |
|
|
Personally, I can not agree with karatejake that team members should not carry firearms in church. However, let's qualify that with the important points that Jeff makes. The proper mindset can take years to develop, as does character and maturity. Learning proper concealment is a must – as is training and practice and practice. Even with prior experience, training and proper practice is where most of us need help, and there's always room for improvement.
In Ohio at least, carrying a firearm in church requires the permission of the church leadership. Though some will argue otherwise, limiting carry in church to those the church leaders know to be qualified and who they feel comfortable with seems to be the best way. This provides a level of security/protection over and above waiting on the response to a 911 call.
Most all those who feel called to carry firearms in church have taken these considerations into account and are well aware of the grave responsibility that entails.
|
|
|
8:37 pm August 14, 2008
|
| | Ohio | |
| Guest
| posts | |
|
|
In Ohio at least, carrying a firearm in church requires the permission of the church leadership.
While that is true, if you carry as a part of an appointed team in a security role, your church may be headed for serious trouble with their insurance company if they find out. However, if you're certified by the state of ohio with a class c or class a license with a firearm spec, nobody can say anything because that means you were certified by the state to carry a weapon in a security role. If you carry a weapon in a church appointed security role without these licenses, you may not be in trouble with the law so much since churches are still somewhat autonomous, but you may find yourself in some serious trouble with your insurance company to the point of being dropped.
Take the Colorado case for example. (I know this church gets used alot). The Colorado shooting was not a surprise to the church. There was at least a week's notice according to that church's insurance company. That church called their insurance company and asked about weapons and that sort of thing, and the insurance company informed them of the laws of that state and such and gave them the go ahead. Now…with that said, if you, as a representative of your church in the security role, has contacted your insurance company and have given them proof of your training and all involved, and they ok the use of firearms by the security team, then by all means, if it is necessary, carry that firearm. Until all that has taken place, I, personally, believe it is far too risky to carry that firearm. If anything were to happen and you had to use that firearm and you never told the church's insurance company…what would happen? The church would quite possibly be looking for a new insurance company.
I don't say this to be argumentative, I just say this to express my thoughts and nothing more. These are the things I've learned through research and the other things I've looked into.
|
|
|
5:41 am August 15, 2008
| rainmaker
| | Middletown, OH | |
| New Member | posts 0 | |
|
|
Good points, no arguement. If I remember right, actual certification (while it's probably a good idea) is not required in the state of Ohio at this time, though that may change. Other state laws would vary.
One nice thing about this forum is that it gives us a chance to share and learn from each other. There's a lot to learn about all this, and this site's a great help. As the word gets out and site participation grows, it will get even better.
|
|
|
8:52 pm August 15, 2008
|
| | Ohio | |
| Guest
| posts | |
|
|
I agree entirely. This is an awesome site to share thoughts and ideas and learn and teach all at the same time. I want to give a huge thanks to Glen and Jack and all the others that have put time and effort into this site.
|
|
|
7:34 am August 17, 2008
| SMince2
| | Northeast Alabama | |
| New Member | posts 1 | |
|
|
Alabama has no restrictions regarding the CCW inside churches. I really have no problem with teams carrying. But, then again, I'm sort of hardcore.
I'm our church safety/emergency director but we have no actual policy concerning carrying as part of the team. It's just not something that has really came up, although I need to broach the subject. I do CCW as a private citizen, although being directly involved with church security it would be somewhat of a gray area. Perhaps not as much in Alabama as in more liberal states.
I've had considerable training, much more than the average CCW test and more than some LE go through. Private instruction I've paid for out of my own pocket, because I believe it is that important.
While I beleive teams need all the tools karatejake mentioned in his post, I'll also include the gun as one of those tools. When you need one, nothing else will really do.
I've only got 8 posts here, and would like to share more. I've been really busy with other commitments lately.
|
|
|
4:25 pm October 29, 2008
|
| | Knoxville, Tn | |
| Guest
| posts | |
|
|
We don't yet have a formal security team. However with a shooting that killed people happening just a few miles away from our church the pastor and I spoke about weapons int he church. I let him know that before that I had full plans of leaving me weapon (that I carry every day) in the car on sunday. I felt like it was disrespectful so to speak to have a deadly weapon in the house of God. But after this shooting and murder that happened I had to think a little deeper. I concluded that if that had been our church a few months ago that someone walked into and started firing a shotgun, but I had been somewhat trained, and licensed to carry by the state, but had left my gun in the car and someone or multiple people were killed I'd feel bad about all. I'm not saying that I have a duty to protect everyone because I have a gun on my hip. BUT I do feel I have the duty to protect my family and in a small church a church family isn't much difference. If I could save just one persons life by carrying my gun and stopping that person from firing one more time.. then I made a difference. Therefore I notified the pastor that from now on I will be armed in church every sunday. Of course I'll be concealed as there's no need for people to know, but if a man does what one did just months ago down the street, at our church I'll not have to ask myself what could I have done.
|
|
|
2:16 pm November 4, 2008
|
| | |
| Guest
| posts | |
|
|
I just had the conversation with the senior pastor yesterday concerning concealed weapons in service. After a very interesting Sunday service in which several situations all occured on one Sunday it gave me an oppurtunity to discuss all the options. Thankfully nothing serious came from any of the situations but I am thankful it got the senior pastor thinking of the 'what ifs'.
Knowing of my former LE background he actually asked me, "Can you still carry a weapon?" After confirming my legal ability to carry a concealed weapon I also shared that I always have had it on me except on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights because I had not recieved any permission from the board or him. It had always stayed in the car. He asked that I begin to carry on Sunday mornings during all the services.
This opened a needed discussion on church security and safety issues in our church. We will now be starting from scratch and building policies and teams to be prepared for those "what ifs."
I really appreciate the info that can be gleaned simply from reading the post ect.
Thanks all
|
|
|
8:21 pm November 17, 2008
| spence
| | |
| New Member | posts 1 | |
|
|
It appears the link to the article isn’t working.
I’m from New Jersey, one of the most restrictive states in the nation regarding CCW laws. The thought of any law enforcement agency providing instruction on ANY aspect of private security to a church would bring howls of disapproval from the bleeding hearts in this area.
That having been said, I am concerned about the civil lawsuit ramifications that the sheriff is opening himself up to by conducting the training. It’s one thing to approve of congregants being armed, but when they actually conduct training, they are opening themselves up for different avenues of attack in a civil setting. I am a certified range instructor in NJ and am well aware of all the paperwork that we must generate to protect ourselves if one of our LE personnel were to use his weapon improperly. All of this is discoverable in a court of law.
Since CCW permits are virtually unobtainable to civilians in this state, I am usually the only one armed during any of our services. The Pastor actually encouraged this. The ushers and security team are usually aware of my location at any time during the services and have on occasion summoned me for advice or to deal with a situation.
The decision to be armed in church is not an easy one. One must be rock solid in their faith and dedicated to the security mission at church. For me, being armed was at first difficult, because I was thinking cop when I should have been thinking Jesus. But His grace has allowed me to adjust to the situation and now I am more comfortable with it.
I can relate to the one poster who said that carrying in the church was somehow disrespectful. I felt that way myself until I learned just how many church shootings there have been when I was developing a active shooter/security presentation for our church. What an eye opener.
|
|
|
12:25 am November 18, 2008
|
| | |
| Guest
| posts | |
|
|
Firearms in church do not bother me.What was the 40 cal Glock of biblical times? The Sword… There are several verses that speak of Swords.
(Luke 22:36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
John 18 tells of when judas betrayed Jesus. We see that Simon Peter was packin a Sword and defended Jesus with it.
(John 18:10-11) 10Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
I'm not trying to get into an argument about who should carry and what training should be required. But it is clear that Jesus allowed and expected his disciples to carry swords and defened themselves. Jesus certainly doesn't need me to carry a firearm to stop a gunman. He could stop him however he sees fit. But I maybe the guy he uses to stop him. How can I if Im not prepared?
|
|
|
11:08 am May 26, 2009
| Calmo2000
| | |
| New Member | posts 0 | |
|
|
Very interesting thoughts on this subject, I know these posts are from 2008 but being a new member they are new to me. Both sides offer very good advice. I am awaiting word back from our pastors and board members regarding starting a safety/security team and in my proposal I covered arming of some and covered the requirements for such arming. It will be interesting to see how arming is viewed by the pastors and board. With today's rapidly changing situations as it relates to shootings in churches, schools, workplaces, etc., I think outlooks on the armed persons question will not remain static.
|
|